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'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Sequel or Prequel?

'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby kramersson » November 3rd, 2017, 4:25 pm

From my other thread (James Wan and Saw), a lot of people have given feedback as to how they want to see the franchise move forward and obviously the general consensus is that the next instalment needs to break new grounds and do something completely different. Talk is cheap though – I’m putting this to action. I’ve given a lot of thoughts around this and below are some ideas as to how I think the next instalment should be shaped like.

-Prequel-
Yes, I just said prequel, but hear me out. Over 8 movies I understand there were too many flashbacks to count and to some people that, in itself, is already enough for a backstory for Kramer. However, I disagree. If you really think about it, the flashbacks were often times choppy, quick, and sometimes all over the place and inconsistent. I’m not saying I don’t like them, of course I did, and any time Tobin is on screen everyone smiles. But he deserves more. He deserves a whole movie about his life before becoming Jigsaw and what drove him to become Jigsaw in the first place. I’m not saying simply follow the events from Saw IV, I have a better/different idea, read on.

-Opening-
They need to stop opening the movie with traps. Traps is not the only way to open a movie in an impactful way. If this movie is going to be about Kramer, it needs to open to something that is relevant to him. Imagine this – the spooky Lionsgate logo and music appears, atmosphere is dark, and the camera pans from equipment to equipment, showing little at a time. These equipment are just normal hardware equipment like a drill, saw, hacksaw, wood bar, etc, anything that you would find in a workshop. After some credits show, the room is lit and you see what’s really going on (room being lit in a way resembling the toilet screen to throw audience off) – this is a normal construction site for whatever Kramer was involved with when he was trying to build homes for the homeless. You get my drift.

-Kramer Smiles-
If you think back to Saw IV, there were a few flashbacks of him before he was Jigsaw and he was just a normal man with a normal smile. We loved this – admit it, you did too. We need to bring this back and introduce him really as a normal and successful mechanical engineer/businessman to highlight the fact that he was not always the unluckiest man on the planet (as some critics have said). For a man to go from normal to Jigsaw is the main theme that this movie should explore and get the audience to guess how he got there. AGAIN, I am not simply referring to the loss of his unborn baby and the events with Cecil. Those should just be one of the components.

-Exploring the Storyline from Saw V-
I always thought the storyline from Saw V about the people who ‘burnt down the house, killed 8 people, stole the property, and nobody cared’ was interesting and very personal to Kramer and should be explored more to fully understand how that has impacted Kramer. That should be the main arc for the second act and in terms of action, the whole burning down of the home should be shot and done practically. Kramer should be aware that it was happening and should be there as a person trying to save those people. But he couldn’t and in one scene, he should be face to face with a person who is severely burnt and made Kramer emotional to a point where he cries and gives an Oscar performance. This is very important to set up the tone of the movie in that this really is different from the rest – this movie needs to include strong emotional scenes and make the audience feel bad and sad about what’s going on in the movie.

-The Gang-
In response to the burning down of the house, Kramer would somehow learn that there was a gang or a group of people who were truly responsible for it and involved. This causes Kramer to pursue them irrationally (while he was still healthy) but to no avail as he is just one person and is powerless. We see Kramer get owned, get beat, get put in a situation that keeps the audience at the edge of their seats (think about the Daniel Craig’s captive scene from Casino Royale in his underwear). The Gang is the main antagonist of the whole movie and has big impact to Kramer’s life.

-Jill Tuck-
Jill needs to play alongside Kramer to make this all work. She cannot be absent and she needs to have just as much screen time as Kramer to put all the pieces together and showcase how their relationship went from 0 to 100 and then back to 0. These scenes would also give the movie something they have never done before – namely humor (through jokes from Kramer/Jill) and romance (how would you like to see Kramer healthy in a nice suit, looking all handsome, and proposing to Jill?).

-The Twist-
For this, we need to explore the flashback of Kramer ‘driving himself off a cliff and pulling out the steel rod from his body’. This scene does happen but how it happened is not entirely how Kramer mentioned it in the previous Saw movies. The idea here is that The Gang actually put him in that predicament, after he continued to pursue them on the back of the house burning incident. The final act should be The Gang putting Jigsaw in a car, and forcing him to drive into the back of a truck full of rods or else Jill Tuck dies. The point here is that he is free to drive away as the car is not rigged in any way and hitting the back of the truck must be on his own will. Anyone in his position would know that this action might cause him death, and he knows it too, but deep down he loves Jill and would use any means necessary to protect her. He proceeds with driving directly into the truck, and the rods spears into his body. At this point the cassette in the car plays (it was on a time delay or something) and then the twist gets reveals [cue Hello John music]:

“Hello John, you are indeed one tough son of a bitch. If you are listening to this, then you would be wondering why this is not hurting you right now, but it sure will later (with some giggles). [cuts to The Gang putting anesthetic to his body thus preventing him from feeling the immediate pain and allowing him to pull out the rod by himself]. You have to understand that we are not monsters. Sometimes it’s not up to you how your life would be, but it may be up to you whether or not you will continue to have that life. [cuts to some scenes with The Gang being forced into doing what they did simply to protect themselves and their loved ones]. If you drove away today, eventually we will kill you because you will not stop pursuing us. But now, you will realize we just saved you in the most extreme way and you may finally start to understand your life is more important than you think and that you should be doing more with your life than fool around with us. It’s time to let go. [eventually cuts to flashbacks of happy times in Kramer’s life, and ending at a high note with Kramer smiling and gradually displaying that Jigsaw look on his face].”

That’s basically the end of the movie and the main idea of this movie again is to show the whole journey of how Kramer became Jigsaw, with new twists and storylines that does not ignore previous movies. The Gang is not an apprentice, it’s not the Original Jigsaw, and has no intention of testing people and putting people in traps. They were only fascinated by Kramer’s actions and stubbornness (if you will) and wanted to give him a chance. This whole ordeal gave Kramer the idea of testing human nature as he, himself, passed this ‘unofficial’ test/trap.

-Title: Kramer-
Last point is that although they did mess up the continuity of the movie names, this gave me the idea that for the next movie it should simply called ‘Kramer’, to be somewhat consistent with the ‘Jigsaw’ naming convention. Sequential numbering is already broken and thus it no longer matters. I personally find that ‘Kramer’ is very stylish and should be able to stand on its own as a movie name.

So there you have it. This may not be the best twist, may not be the best story, but I truly believe it will be something different and gives a big opportunity for the characters to try something new and try to tie things together and make some of the storylines from the other movies make sense and relevant. Happy to hear what you think about this and your ideas on how to make this even better.

Thanks for reading.
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Re: 'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby ItsNeverOver » November 4th, 2017, 5:26 pm

I wish jigsaw would've been a prequel. Carrying on from the final chapter kind of ruins it for me.
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Re: 'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby SWIN98 » November 4th, 2017, 11:00 pm

kramersson wrote:From my other thread (James Wan and Saw), a lot of people have given feedback as to how they want to see the franchise move forward and obviously the general consensus is that the next instalment needs to break new grounds and do something completely different. Talk is cheap though – I’m putting this to action. I’ve given a lot of thoughts around this and below are some ideas as to how I think the next instalment should be shaped like.

-Prequel-
Yes, I just said prequel, but hear me out. Over 8 movies I understand there were too many flashbacks to count and to some people that, in itself, is already enough for a backstory for Kramer. However, I disagree. If you really think about it, the flashbacks were often times choppy, quick, and sometimes all over the place and inconsistent. I’m not saying I don’t like them, of course I did, and any time Tobin is on screen everyone smiles. But he deserves more. He deserves a whole movie about his life before becoming Jigsaw and what drove him to become Jigsaw in the first place. I’m not saying simply follow the events from Saw IV, I have a better/different idea, read on.

-Opening-
They need to stop opening the movie with traps. Traps is not the only way to open a movie in an impactful way. If this movie is going to be about Kramer, it needs to open to something that is relevant to him. Imagine this – the spooky Lionsgate logo and music appears, atmosphere is dark, and the camera pans from equipment to equipment, showing little at a time. These equipment are just normal hardware equipment like a drill, saw, hacksaw, wood bar, etc, anything that you would find in a workshop. After some credits show, the room is lit and you see what’s really going on (room being lit in a way resembling the toilet screen to throw audience off) – this is a normal construction site for whatever Kramer was involved with when he was trying to build homes for the homeless. You get my drift.

-Kramer Smiles-
If you think back to Saw IV, there were a few flashbacks of him before he was Jigsaw and he was just a normal man with a normal smile. We loved this – admit it, you did too. We need to bring this back and introduce him really as a normal and successful mechanical engineer/businessman to highlight the fact that he was not always the unluckiest man on the planet (as some critics have said). For a man to go from normal to Jigsaw is the main theme that this movie should explore and get the audience to guess how he got there. AGAIN, I am not simply referring to the loss of his unborn baby and the events with Cecil. Those should just be one of the components.

-Exploring the Storyline from Saw V-
I always thought the storyline from Saw V about the people who ‘burnt down the house, killed 8 people, stole the property, and nobody cared’ was interesting and very personal to Kramer and should be explored more to fully understand how that has impacted Kramer. That should be the main arc for the second act and in terms of action, the whole burning down of the home should be shot and done practically. Kramer should be aware that it was happening and should be there as a person trying to save those people. But he couldn’t and in one scene, he should be face to face with a person who is severely burnt and made Kramer emotional to a point where he cries and gives an Oscar performance. This is very important to set up the tone of the movie in that this really is different from the rest – this movie needs to include strong emotional scenes and make the audience feel bad and sad about what’s going on in the movie.

-The Gang-
In response to the burning down of the house, Kramer would somehow learn that there was a gang or a group of people who were truly responsible for it and involved. This causes Kramer to pursue them irrationally (while he was still healthy) but to no avail as he is just one person and is powerless. We see Kramer get owned, get beat, get put in a situation that keeps the audience at the edge of their seats (think about the Daniel Craig’s captive scene from Casino Royale in his underwear). The Gang is the main antagonist of the whole movie and has big impact to Kramer’s life.

-Jill Tuck-
Jill needs to play alongside Kramer to make this all work. She cannot be absent and she needs to have just as much screen time as Kramer to put all the pieces together and showcase how their relationship went from 0 to 100 and then back to 0. These scenes would also give the movie something they have never done before – namely humor (through jokes from Kramer/Jill) and romance (how would you like to see Kramer healthy in a nice suit, looking all handsome, and proposing to Jill?).

-The Twist-
For this, we need to explore the flashback of Kramer ‘driving himself off a cliff and pulling out the steel rod from his body’. This scene does happen but how it happened is not entirely how Kramer mentioned it in the previous Saw movies. The idea here is that The Gang actually put him in that predicament, after he continued to pursue them on the back of the house burning incident. The final act should be The Gang putting Jigsaw in a car, and forcing him to drive into the back of a truck full of rods or else Jill Tuck dies. The point here is that he is free to drive away as the car is not rigged in any way and hitting the back of the truck must be on his own will. Anyone in his position would know that this action might cause him death, and he knows it too, but deep down he loves Jill and would use any means necessary to protect her. He proceeds with driving directly into the truck, and the rods spears into his body. At this point the cassette in the car plays (it was on a time delay or something) and then the twist gets reveals [cue Hello John music]:

“Hello John, you are indeed one tough son of a bitch. If you are listening to this, then you would be wondering why this is not hurting you right now, but it sure will later (with some giggles). [cuts to The Gang putting anesthetic to his body thus preventing him from feeling the immediate pain and allowing him to pull out the rod by himself]. You have to understand that we are not monsters. Sometimes it’s not up to you how your life would be, but it may be up to you whether or not you will continue to have that life. [cuts to some scenes with The Gang being forced into doing what they did simply to protect themselves and their loved ones]. If you drove away today, eventually we will kill you because you will not stop pursuing us. But now, you will realize we just saved you in the most extreme way and you may finally start to understand your life is more important than you think and that you should be doing more with your life than fool around with us. It’s time to let go. [eventually cuts to flashbacks of happy times in Kramer’s life, and ending at a high note with Kramer smiling and gradually displaying that Jigsaw look on his face].”

That’s basically the end of the movie and the main idea of this movie again is to show the whole journey of how Kramer became Jigsaw, with new twists and storylines that does not ignore previous movies. The Gang is not an apprentice, it’s not the Original Jigsaw, and has no intention of testing people and putting people in traps. They were only fascinated by Kramer’s actions and stubbornness (if you will) and wanted to give him a chance. This whole ordeal gave Kramer the idea of testing human nature as he, himself, passed this ‘unofficial’ test/trap.

-Title: Kramer-
Last point is that although they did mess up the continuity of the movie names, this gave me the idea that for the next movie it should simply called ‘Kramer’, to be somewhat consistent with the ‘Jigsaw’ naming convention. Sequential numbering is already broken and thus it no longer matters. I personally find that ‘Kramer’ is very stylish and should be able to stand on its own as a movie name.

So there you have it. This may not be the best twist, may not be the best story, but I truly believe it will be something different and gives a big opportunity for the characters to try something new and try to tie things together and make some of the storylines from the other movies make sense and relevant. Happy to hear what you think about this and your ideas on how to make this even better.

Thanks for reading.


Man......THAT WOULD BE A GREAT NAME FOR A SEQUEL TO JIGSAW....."KRAMER" SOUNDS VERY EPIC....I HONESTLY FEEL LIKE "JIGSAW 2" WOULD SOUND VERY CLICHE AND CHEESY TBH
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Re: 'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby RealmOfLutherNiles » November 5th, 2017, 2:48 am

Those are some really good ideas. I would add some references to Brit and/or Mallick, though. Maybe Brit hired a member of the gang to burn down the house and the dealer eventually hired Mallick. The story doesn't have to focus on those two characters, but these small references should be included so the Gang story doesn't contradict the story established in Saw V.

Otherwise, I really love your idea. I never thought that a prequel of John's pre-Jigsaw time would work, but this is actually a pretty cool fanscript that I'd love to see on screen.
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Re: 'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby kramersson » November 5th, 2017, 4:09 am

thx guys, good to have some support

btw, i am a assistant screenwriter in Hong Kong for TV shows, i hope i can put together something legit and eventually get the chance to present it to the producers...
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Re: 'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby Logan_Nelson » November 5th, 2017, 3:22 pm

Just wanted to say I like your tentative plot! Only thing I disagree with is the title, as people usually hear Kramer and think of Seinfeld. That and I would add Eleanor finding Hoffman in the bathroom.

But other than that I very much enjoyed it!

I'd love to get together with a couple people from here and write the best damn Saw script of all time.
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Re: 'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby Albert-Wesker » November 5th, 2017, 11:10 pm

Well, I think it's time to move away from John Kramer a bit. Tobin Bell is great and I would be happy to see him appear as John Kramer a few times more, but there is only so much you can still tell about John Kramer. We know almost everything about him and I'd rather have a movie that is giving more insight into Gordon or Logan.

Also, Kramer as a title isn't that amazing. Jigsaw lets people immediately think of Saw. Kramer doesn't, only fans will recognize it and even those might not think of Saw right away.
Better make the next movie about Logan and call it Logan ;)
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Re: 'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby LukeG » November 6th, 2017, 10:08 am

Immediately I think of Kramer from Seinfeld. Definitely should not be the name lol
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Re: 'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby efrens9177@gmail.com » November 16th, 2017, 10:07 pm

A prequel sounds like an ok idea. I think at this point, everyone knows how John became Jigsaw. I'm definitely satisfied.
I suggest the prequel take place somewhere between the events of Saw and Saw 2, Saw 2 and Saw 3, or even before SAW. We really don't know much about what happened between these periods. Also, tieing it back to all the apprentices involved so we get a clear picture of how they got along and their contributions would be nice. Or starting the next sequel with a major event from the past (30-40min) and then going forward to the end of "Jigsaw".
Just an idea. BTW, I miss Detective Kerry and Amanda.
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Re: 'Kramer' - Title for Next Instalment

Postby Faerie Tanith » November 17th, 2017, 1:10 am

The problem with prequels is retcon. So much of the past has already been established, it would be too easy to mess up.
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