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The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Sequel or Prequel?

Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby Vinc360 » January 8th, 2019, 2:12 pm

It wouldn't. To be fair, the only reason they killed him off was because they wanted to end the series at 3. They haven't even watched most of the ones that came after that. Leigh, for example, stated he doesn't know who Hoffman is.
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Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby Saw Warrior » January 8th, 2019, 3:39 pm

Vinc360 wrote:It wouldn't. To be fair, the only reason they killed him off was because they wanted to end the series at 3. They haven't even watched most of the ones that came after that. Leigh, for example, stated he doesn't know who Hoffman is.



That's very strange. Hoffman was in Saw 3. Jill was also in Saw 3.

They were both created by Wan and Leigh. Did he even watch the movie? He was even called forensic Hoffman ( during credits )
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Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby Vinc360 » January 8th, 2019, 7:02 pm

Well he wrote 3, but Hoffman was a background unimportant character at the time. He was only put in there by producers so they'd be able to continue the series. Leigh wanted it to end at 3.
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Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby RealmOfLutherNiles » January 8th, 2019, 11:49 pm

Saw Warrior wrote:That's very strange. Hoffman was in Saw 3. Jill was also in Saw 3.


And I heard that he even named Corbett Denlon and Jill Tuck after his girlfriend, Corbett Tuck.

Saw Warrior wrote:Let's not pretend retcons are new.


Of course they are nothing new to the franchise, but there are two kinds of retcons: the horrible one, where the writers just erase and ignore previous events and the other one, where they simply change or expand the context of past events while everything still remains canonical.
"Ten faded places, that will fall prey to evil..."- The Whisperer
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Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby Vinc360 » January 8th, 2019, 11:56 pm

I believe the plan is to tell a story where all previous movies can theoretically kinda still make sense, but while taking loosely explained creative liberties to ensure the new movies can be entertaining to people qho don't want to watch a movie filled with exposition dialogue and flashbacks to attenpt to show us exactly why Logan sprta disappeared and how Jigsaw is actually alive. Hence my example in the last page. I think the sort of thing you can expect is on the level of hey here's what ACTUALLY happened after Saw III and Jigsaw's autopsy / Saw IVwas just a retelling of a crazed Jigsaw fan mortician who was making shit up.
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Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby evanmav » January 9th, 2019, 9:02 pm

Vinc360 wrote:I believe the plan is to tell a story where all previous movies can theoretically kinda still make sense, but while taking loosely explained creative liberties to ensure the new movies can be entertaining to people qho don't want to watch a movie filled with exposition dialogue and flashbacks to attenpt to show us exactly why Logan sprta disappeared and how Jigsaw is actually alive. Hence my example in the last page. I think the sort of thing you can expect is on the level of hey here's what ACTUALLY happened after Saw III and Jigsaw's autopsy / Saw IVwas just a retelling of a crazed Jigsaw fan mortician who was making shit up.


The retconning just sounds so messy to be honest if it's like how you described it being on the previous page. I would be pretty pissed if they literally just erased Saw II-Jigsaw because a character was introduced in Jigsaw who is crazy and made all the past movies up. Just sets a precedent that any of the movies could be rendered meaningless at any time cause they can just claim it was all made up or a dream. I'd rather them honestly just be like we are rebooting the series completely and starting fresh.

What if the next Saw movie bombs? Then they've really written themselves into a corner cause they can't go back on what they do in the next Saw movie. This has the potential to essentially kill the series as it will make it where they can't just continue on from Jigsaw/Saw 3D.

Maybe I'm just being dramatic, but I really enjoyed almost all the Saw movies, minus 3D, so to just see them wipe them from the series is sad to me. Like someone else said Halloween had to do a reboot in a sense because those movies always jumped all over the place and did contradict eachother. The Saw movies never were on the same level as Friday the 13th/Halloween sequels where they made so many sequels that jumped the shark.

I really hope this movie takes its time on coming out because it seems like it needs a lot of work. I also wish they had a director already who could work on the script, and not just someone who is going to just make the movie that is already written.
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Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby Jigsaw_Expert » January 9th, 2019, 11:01 pm

evanmav wrote:What if the next Saw movie bombs? Then they've really written themselves into a corner cause they can't go back on what they do in the next Saw movie. This has the potential to essentially kill the series as it will make it where they can't just continue on from Jigsaw/Saw 3D.

If this one bombs I would expect the franchise would be on ice for another decade or so and they'd eventually reboot it with a brand new villain.

Controversial opinion perhaps but I don't think Tobin Bell has any star power over the general audience, as much as I love him I don't think his presence alone will be enough to draw in anymore than Jigsaw did. General viewers need to be enticed by the traps, but the traps themselves need a cool new hook or structure to them. Rehashing the Jeff / William / Bobby game or a group going through a series of traps, it's been played out (although the group games are definitely preferable). In this case the "kill Jigsaw" angle is great, they just need to hype that up in the marketing. Vinc mentioned they want an unusual location, which would certainly help. Assuming Kramer was "killed" in III in the canon of this new entry they could hype up the "how is Kramer still alive" mystery in the marketing, but I think the interest in that angle is inherently diminished since Jigsaw's marketing angle was exactly that.

I know Vinc was just throwing out an example but IV - Jigsaw being a fangirl's fever dream or fanfiction is a little abstract for me to wrap my little brain around. I'd personally prefer something a bit more tangible and ridiculous. I know they want to abandon the Logan character but if he was a factor I would accept something like Logan swapping Kramer's body when it's in storage awaiting the autopsy. No matter what they do I don't think there's any way to get around Kramer's sudden health improvement after he was bedridden in III from the cancer. Some things will just have to be handwaved away. If this new entry is going to be more grounded and serious I think in general Jigsaw fanboys / fangirls need to be axed in concept. I was excited by the prospect of the fansite users in Jigsaw because they fitted the more schlocky vibe of Jigsaw, but I don't think such characters would mesh well with a grittier movie.
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Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby Vinc360 » January 10th, 2019, 12:51 am

Yeah I'm honestly just throwing around these batshit crazy scenarios because based on what I'm hearing they're scrambling for a way to hustify making the movie they want to make without rebooting. They've been scrambling since III was made as a conclusion, but it seems they're growing tired of the limitations that puts on them. But at the same time, they don't seem to want to reboot it. Think of these limitations, these are what the guidelines are for the next Saw movie:

- It has to logically fit within the same mythology and timeline somehow
- It can't be a prequel or anything that makes it feel like a spinoff / inconsequential (they fear Jigsaw suffered from that)
- Jigsaw must be in it a lot, more than any of the non-Whannell sequel, and it can't just be flashbacks.
- It can use old characters, but some of them are off-limits unless the idea really requires them (Logan, Gordon, Hoffman, Amanda)
- It can't be centered around a Jigsaw apprentice
- Copycat would be ok, but again, Tobin must be prominently featured and the main antagonist, and obviously can't interact with said copycat
- They are sensitive about making sure it can springboard future sequels without feeling like a TV episode
- It can't be Jigsaw 2. It can't be Saw IX. It needs tp be fully understandable for newcomers.
- While they want it to be grittier and darker than Jigsaw, they want a psychological thriller more than a horror movie. It needs to have surprising and clever twists at its core.
- Ideally no police procedural
- Budget should be kept to around 10 million
- Twisted hopes to keep it traditional with a back to basics approach (and wouldn't mind a certain previous director back)
- Lionsgate wants to ensure the series is modernized and shows new marketable hooks to bring in new fans
- Jigsaw kills bad guys now

Look at the above list, it's a tall order to say the least
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Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby Vinc360 » January 10th, 2019, 1:16 am

Oh and they very much want someone who can eventually take over the Jigsaw role for real, they just feel like Logan wasn't it. They felt he was another Hoffman (who worked as a Jigsaw antagonist more than a replacement). They didn't like Amanda, liled Hoffman as something other than intended, and felt Logan wasn't suitable to eventually work without Bell when he moves on from the role. Basically, Jigsaw ended up working as a spinoff rather than a soft reboot. They want to correct that. And for now, Bell runs the show until they can get someone on his level to tag along.
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Re: The sequel mighr be on ice indefinitely

Postby Jigsaw_Expert » January 10th, 2019, 2:10 am

When it comes to eventually introducing a new villain I think they should consider completely moving away from Kramer's principles. The entire "appreciate your life" motto could be abandoned. Not that the new villain should have a simplistic motive like enjoying others suffering or just wanting to be a vigilante, but the "appreciate your life" thing was really unique (at first), I would like to someone with a completely unique perspective using the traps. They could even indiscriminately select people for the traps, regardless of whether or not their bad people, if that's what the motive would naturally lead to. The weakest part of the Kramer character to me has always been the "no kill" rule that he blatantly betrays when the script requires, I hope they can leave that out of the next villain too. Again, not that the new villain should be a slasher or frequently killing people directly every scene. Doesn't even have to be a Jigsaw fan, it could be someone who thinks Jigsaw is a complete hack who is wasting his talents for a misguided crusade.

The only risk they've ever taken with this series is killing off Kramer / Amanda. I fear when they eventually craft their next big bad they'll be too timid to craft a villain who is truly new and will instead just create a John Kramer clone. Early days to worry about that anyway, since it seems Kramer will be the antagonist for the next two or three movies at least (assuming 9 performs well enough to commission more).

Evaluating all those points it does seem that Twisted and Lionsgate are approaching this from the right angle. The only thing I'm indifferent towards is the "Jigsaw has to test people who deserve it" thing. I prefer first movie Kramer where he was testing people who were, perhaps a little pathetic or lacking in some traits, but blatantly undeserving of their trials. As the series went on and the sins started to ramp up to the extreme it almost turned Jigsaw into an antihero. But to the casual viewer I think "antihero Jigsaw" has now become the definitive Jigsaw, so if the main players were to be tested for reasons as trivial as Adam's or Gordon's people would complain either way.
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